"Rennes-le-Château, A paradoxical Affair"
Interview with Octonovo
Laurent Buchholtzer (aka Octonovo) talked about his investigation into the trafficking of Masses organized by a local Catholic network of which Berenger Sauniere would have been in league with ..... Rennes-le-Chateau, a paradoxical history - with thanks to Johan Netchacovitch for permission to translate his interview.
Gazette of RLC: In the field of Rennes-le-Château research, you are known as a webmaster, researcher, lecturer. New author, you are very critical in respect of your colleagues: "The last book that has really brought something to the proceedings was that of Patrick Mensior which was already a few years old," you write. Why is yours different?
The first point that differentiates my work is the basic equipment which i have been fortunate in recent years to work on - more than 800 pages of authentic documents. And what documents! I have had access to the accounts of the priest of Rennes-le-Château just when he is embroiled in his enrichment, & i I see no other best source. His correspondence books have proved very interesting because they allow us to know the priest's concerns almost daily. Before this he was some kind of mythical character, now Berenger Sauniere became a real character who was very interesting to know better. But the real difference, I think, I hope, is the rational and methodological character of this work. But here, it will be to everyone else to judge the result.
Gazette of RLC: Remembering the first version of the story and you conclude thus: "At the risk of disappointing you, I must admit that the story is not, strictly speaking, true. And this may surprise you, but I must also state that it is not really false. " What were your your thoughts!
The case of Rennes-le-Château has become a modern myth in the minds of the public. The main assertions put forward in the extensive literature on the subject are false (talking about the Da Vinci Code?) And yet ... they are based on real elements. It was embroidered on a real canvas, but the final image is quite aberrant, very different from the initial facts. This is the rational and irrational mixture which is very impressive in this case - how imagination took hold of a real event (the life of Berenger Sauniere) and ended up in a completely distorted understanding.
This would not be founded in reality & I think we moved on long ago. But the real reality base has become very difficult to recover over time. It was/is still my goal.
Gazette of RLC: You have a clear opinion about the Priory of Sion, "... the Priory of Sion is a recent imaginary creation due to a small group of people, whose motivations and backgrounds were very different, grouped around a whimsical character: Pierre Plantard. "They have invented everything?
I have no doubt on the matter: "they" invented everything, especially Pierre Plantard ... The Priory of Sion has no historical legitimacy, no credibility. Let's look at the problem correctly: The real things are made of real elements. Who? How many members? What were the conditions on entry? What rituals? What administrative structures? What correspondence? With whom? Etc. If it existed in reality, it left traces and these traces are found in reality. QED.
In short, it is important not to take the word "secret" literally ... It's just folklore. For the public, this is probably a rather complicated subject. Yet with a little practice, it becomes very simple. Recently I was interested in the order of Félicitaires (unrelated to the case at hand), an initiatory society of the eighteenth century much less known than the Priory of Sion. It took two hours to find a scholarly article that was devoted to them and two days to retrieve their rituals.
In the case of the Priory of Sion, if you want, and it's been years that we seek, all you find are proven false, shady maneuvers, police reports that are not flattering, swindlers, illuminated ... For cons, I think this "joke" has itself become a myth. Now these imaginary constructions having their own "life," I think the Priory of Sion is a fault in the future to have a real past. We are living witnesses to the birth of a myth and we are already seeing the change in the public's mind. To be continued…
Gazette of RLC: You reconstitute the genesis of the Priory of Sion and bring unprecedented elements. "Pierre Plantard was then clearly the instrument of Geneviève Zaepffel, you write. Tell us about Geneviève Zaepffel.
There has been much focus on this prestigious figure including Pierre Plantard who claimed the unsuspecting with his mythomania: Monti, Savoire ... and we struggled to find proof of this. Geneviève Zaepffel had a real influence on Pierre Plantard in his youth, especially during the war. He is is never called when she had her finest hour but then the character is edifying: pathological liar, illuminated, venal (but sometimes with amazing generosity of access), collaborator, recognized visionary but shortsighted ... it's probably because she was interested in esoterica. It is experiencing this kind of character to the origins of the Priory of Sion that it is best satisfied the implausible nature of the thing. I detailed the elements in my possession about her in the conference proceedings of the ARTBS 2006. I recommend reading the faint of heart ...
Gazette of RLC: His friendly relations with the owner of the chateau of Rennes-le-Château, Marius Fatin, are unknown. Why are they important?
I think we have long sought the link between Plantard and Noel Corbu to try to explain things. Now I have the intuition (you can take this with prejudice) that these relations are weak if not non-existent. It's more likely that the Fatin family knew Pierre Plantard & therefore he was able to do his apprenticeship on Rennes-le-Château in the 1960s - he also found a willing accomplice in Marius Fatin for some disinformation: the letter of the Internationnal League of Antiquirian Booksellers in 1966 for example.
Gazette of RLC: Let's turn to the subject of your book, the notebooks! How have you found them and are they authentic?
I found them on microfilm in the Departmental Archives of the Aude (1Mi81 rating and 82). That alone, if you think about it, is a disaster! They were there since 1981 and no "researcher" had found them apart from Pierre Jarnac in 2001 and me in 2004! The source is PUBLIC: it is you say the feat! Their authenticity is not a problem: the writing is good, it evolves over time according to what we know, it refers to unpublished documents that were not available to counterfeiters, it refers to dozens of other characters that have been identified throughout France ... many authors are therefore in favour of their authenticity. Pierre Jarnac, Antoine Captier, Claire Corbu, Patrick Mensior Patrick, Jean-Jacques Bedu, Henry Lincoln, etc.
Gazette of RLC: What's in them?
The accounts from 1896 to 1915 of the priest - including for inputs and up to 1910 only for expenses. This source is supplemented by the Corbu-Captier funds from 1894 to 1896. The Correspondence Notebooks (input and output), with the recipient's name and summary of the letter from 1896 to 1915, this source is supplemented by the book already published from 1915 to 1917 by Pierre Jarnac. Few scattered lists, one of secular books (about 400 pounds) and songs of the era.
Gazette of RLC: Your knowledge of the abbe has changed after analysis of the notebooks?
Radically! After I had made the preliminary sorting between good information and disinformation ... I found a very human character, perfectly in tune with his time, with his weaknesses and touching sides. A humanity that was urgent to find when we see the excesses that some attribute to him. An educated man, conscientious, sometimes up to a rigid frame, devoted to his faith, probably to excess but also a man who liked to laugh and, above all, loved life. And above all, I realized that most of the elements that had been acquired or obtained concerning his biography were totally false.
RLC Gazette: You do not believe in secret links between Sauniere, Boudet, even Billard! Same also for Elie Bot or the Habsburgs! With the exception of Marie Denarnaud and her family, other relationships of the priest of Rennes-le-Château are at least suspicious, if not illusory, you say!
And I repeat! This is one of the most heartbreaking aspects of my work. We talk passionately: you and I have read dozens of books on this topic! Well just imagine that in essence, everyone has copied Corbu and De Sede, then finally they copy the copiers and so on, transmitting nonsense and giving them, by dint of repeating, a consistency in the public spirit. But they remain stupidities! This leads to such a huge result: Mgr Billard never protected Berenger Sauniere in the least. In practice: - he did not care! I repeat: He did not care! For him, he was a simple and humble worker at the bottom of the barrel[?] ... Elie Bot, his best friend? No ... Not even a friend: a competent contractor and who was appreciated but someone who is never invited to the meals of the abbe. Boudet? Habsburg? Emma Calvé? Guess: it's all hogwash. Want another aspect totally despairing of my work? The name of his real friends are almost unknown. Cazal, Cavailhé, Fons and especially Edouard Auriol, the most faithful and most durable of all. You and I have read dozens of books and hardly any one has seen the name in one or two ... And after you ask me why I'm strict with my predecessors? You realize that it has more than 500 books written there about the subject?
Gazette of RLC: Do you miss the research on those that appear in the correspondence books. Almost nothing in the extensive bibliography! Have you not tried to fix it?
Of course, but I did not for two reasons. The first is that it is sometimes difficult and it would have delayed my work a good year (I was already quite late right?) The second is that I remain a scientist. If I bring a lot of elements in my book, I wanted to still keep a little ahead on certain issues. Hey…
Gazette of RLC: In a lecture in 2004, you announced a major patron was a priest of Rennes-les-Bains ... the chaplain spa guest, Justin Sarda. Silence in the assembly ... What links do you have established between Sauniere and Sarda?
Another example missed: in 50 years, no one seems to have noticed that there was a second priest in activity at Rennes-les-Bains, Justin Sarda, the chaplain of the spa guests. Yet the subject has fascinated some ... But Justin Sarda is an excellent example of someone who actually maintained relations with Berenger Sauniere. The letters are dozens and report numerous reciprocal visits. They also state financial donations well above those of Boudet who themselves are actually very limited. Relations between the two men continue also after abbe Sarda had left Rennes-les-Bains. We have a new person near Berenger Sauniere, totally unknown but a very real one.
RLC Gazette: What is less known is the generous side of Sauniere that sends money orders, sometimes substantial, to soldiers at the front! Have you been able to identify some?
Like any human character, Berenger Sauniere has qualities and defects. The fact is that we find in him good qualities of heart. Some mandates reached 50 francs, a sum for the time. The main beneficiaries were: Barthélémy Denarnaud, Auguste Fons, Louis Fromilhague and Joseph Captier († 1915). Most died. They all had children, he had given them the catechism ... This was a disaster, there have been more than 10 deaths in the village for just over 200 inhabitants in 1917.
Gazette of RLC: The traffic of masses - does it seem to you obvious?
If you write a novel, this must seem logical, otherwise your readers will not appreciate it. But the problem of real life, is that it is not always logical ... I am convinced, particularly through the work of Paul Saussez that Berenger Sauniere made a discovery (at least) during the work of his church. This is very interesting but it is not thanks to this discovery that he became enriched ... There is CLEARLY NO DOUBT - he became enriched by trafficking in masses at the expense of donors he abused. Hence the title of my book: a paradoxical case. I can not help it, it's real life!
Gazette of RLC: Sauniere experienced periods of scarcity and was poor when he died? On what do you base this to affirm?
He struggled the first 10 years (1885-1895) but never again after the introduction of his trafficking. He even had a life annuity of 15,000 francs. The mistake he made comes regularly from negotiations that led to the rates offered for he had kept the value of things. Note that especially on the property he was destined to own, but he never mégoté on his religious achievements (church and domain). At the end of his life it is more complicated. First, because he stops his accounts in 1915, because then the war of 14-18 was a period of high inflation and therefore decreased purchasing power. However, his income seemed to have stabilized at these times to 500-600 francs while a priest was supposed to have 75 francs per month. On the other hand he had his pension. I do not think he died poor.
Gazette of RLC: Reading the account books, one wonders about planning the amounts received by Sauniere. For many months, they are identical to the penny! What is your interpretation?
Where amounts are accurate to the penny, one understands that this is a form of game. Whatever his organizational skills, he could plan his income with such precision. But in the mind, correct and this only happens in some years. On analysis, it shows that he had structured his network of donors and he was able to plan their gifts.
Gazette of RLC: How had he done that?
Here it should be noted that this is not a fact but a theory that I emit. My feeling is that the abbe addresses his requests for Masses to members of a large group (several hundred people). This group has no profile of an initiatory society but rather evoke a monarcho- ultra royalist movement in resistance against the rapprochement with the Republic then advocated by the Catholic hierarchy. I would see an entry of a pious union type association dormant, an ultraconservative group, monarchist radical. The fact is that this theory would explain many things. The regularity of the donations even in the absence of demand, the very low failure rate that appears to save his demands, achievements and a number of contradictions that appear at the trial, some of his achievements ... But for now I have not been able to put a name to this potential organization.
Gazette of RLC: The Sacred Heart Confraternity - does this seem credible?
At the time, most Catholics live their faith around three topics of devotion: devotion to the Pope, the Virgin Mary and the Sacred Heart. These are concerns that we find in Berenger Sauniere. As I was looking for a pious union, some elements had me suspect those dedicated to the Sacred Heart and attached to one of three known archiconfréries. My literature searches yielded nothing for the moment and I think that this line of research here is doomed to failure. I continue to look for other associations, however ...[This group may now have been identified by Christian Doumergue - the Catholic Cercle of Narbonne, Sauniere's brother was a member of this group. Rhedesium Editor].
Gazette of RLC: You move forward evidence to justify the theory of funding requests to create a retirement home for priests. The example of the Belvis priest should be told.
This is one of the few reserves emitted by Antoine Captier on my work (he seems to think that the villa has been designed to Marie). But if my hypothesis proves correct, the gifts were intended for the restoration of the church and to build a retirement home for priests of the association. In the context of the time, with the 1905 law, it was an adventure, but above all Berenger Sauniere would have captured a significant share of these funds. The fact is that in the 1920s, Marie Denarnaud was found to host two or three priests who come to retire. Or one that is clearly identifiable was a financier of the abbe. As Mary is very poor at the time, one of her friends is moved by it and wondered what they hope in a letter. Perhaps simply a return to their investment.
Gazette of RLC: "In the case against Berenger Sauniere for trafficking in masses, the income will be regular again, provided by mass intentions even in the absence of requests despite the prohibitions that are made to the abbe matter and duly published warnings. "How might explain what is the substance of this case?
The fact is, my theory would explain many things. If this association actually returned to resistance against his natural authority, we better understand the interests of the diocese to ask the source of income of the abbe: they wanted the name of the factions ...
Similarly, if one of them had to deal with this authority we better understand the financial support he placed then. At the time of the trial, his revenues are quite stable while the masses of applications have fallen sharply and the bishop produced numerous warnings, all quite severe. As his income changes typically operate on 1 January of each year, this suggests the existence of an agreement.
Gazette of RLC: Between the stubbornness of the bishopric, the bad faith of Sauniere and the lack of professionalism of his lawyer, the Canon Huguet, the trial was bogged down for years. Sauniere - Why can he not produce supporting documents?
Saunière could not give any evidence for two reasons. Admitting his accounting, is to admit that he spent for his personal use a large part of the funds collected - he claims to have used these only for building a retirement home for elderly priests. Second, admitting the system is to give the names of his donors, he still stubbornly refused to do so, either to protect the curiosity of the bishopric or to prevent their contact by the diocese and [the possibility] that it would stop his revenues.
Gazette of RLC: Another aberrant fact, those who gave to the abbe ask only rarely and those who are not concerned by donations go wild. How to explain and have you identified?
Their names are spelled out in the correspondence books. Some were hospital religious institutions and surveys have been conducted. They are very easy to identify even if we still have not found the link that could possibly unite them. The fact is that this is a perfect summary of the trial: the bishop almost never granted Masses Sauniere (including Mgr Billard time). But during the trial, most of his donors remain loyal to him despite warnings and scandal. I devote an entire chapter to the study of this trial and the fact is that, again, the theory of a group in resistance explains many things. However, it remains to be proved formally. Find the name of the association, visit their archives, understand their dynamics and their relationship with the priest of Rennes-le-Château. Here, we will show affirmative. Meanwhile, it remains hypothetical.
RLC Gazette: the esoteric-occultist track does not convince you either! The Way of the Cross is a good example.
Regarding the way of the cross, I am not the first to say that it's anything big. The testimony of the first researchers are very clear about this: the esoteric is a subject that appears in Rennes-le-Château with Gerard De Sede and Pierre Plantard. This is the aspect of their mystification that has best taken the public's mind. Previously, researchers were digging with shovels and picks, even using sometimes a medium. But after the "Gold of Rennes", the symbolic interpretation and the search for secret societies have become the main drivers of the case. But again, this does not seem unfounded. For example, about method, I indulged in a particular study. Since I had called 500 private correspondents Abbe, I tried to identify some in an academic book on Christian esotericism in France in the nineteenth century book, he cites more than 1,200 names. But I found no matches. Assuming very unlikely that the abbot would have attended an initiation coterie occult, the least we can say is that it would have had no influence.
Sauniere was not a Freemason or Rosicrucians or neo-Cathar ...
RLC Gazette: You are categorical about the location of ancient Rhedae ... it's Rennes-le-Château! On what basis do you say this?
I know there is a controversy over the location of the ancient Rhedae. First, Rennes-le-Château is a true archaeological spot. As noted by the late Jean-Luc Robin, just open a simple trench to pass a line and you will find shards of pottery, antique tiles and other pieces (currently displayed in the museum). He was not alone in making this finding. The story of Rennes-le-Château is very rich in various discoveries, not least as important ossuaries described by sections of the Society of Archaeological Studies of the Aude since 1900. Do not underestimate the value archaeological place. But this "spot" it corresponds to Rhedae? My problem is that I like to support my statements and, here, I'll avoid because I fear a looting rule on something that I think I have identified (you said researchers?). So in the end, I claim my own authority which I fully agree, is not worth much. In short, I firmly believe, but I could be wrong.
Gazette of RLC: You locate the old castle to the location of the area of the abbot. Would it not on the other side?
On the other hand: which one? It is in his own correspondence that Sauniere says his domain is built on the site of the old castle. Apparently he destroyed the last vestiges to build the domain. That seems credible and I see no reason to doubt but why not?
Gazette of RLC: In "Codex Arcana - Book II - The Da Vinci Code to the Codex Bezae" Thierry Garnier lists other correspondence between Sauniere and Boudet. We identified also on these dates: March 8, 1897, October 5, 1897, April 1, 1898, September 13, 1899, February 25, 1907, March 1, 1907, July 14, 1907, 25 and 26 March 1909, 14 October 1909, 25 October 1907 or 1909. What do you claim?
This is extremely low for some people to assume so close a correspondence. If the few financial donations is removed, there remains almost nothing personal: a greeting card that Boudet hardly answers? Compared to Justin Sarda or Edward Auriol it is insignificant! There is no special relationship between the two men. This is what has already been said by the residents of Rennes-les-Bains or Antoine Captier for years.
Gazette of RLC: A letter with the collection of contributions Lyon (1912) attest that the abbot had a well in this city. Were you able to cross-check the information?
I restored annexed all visible Travel of Sauniere and, predictably, he never goes to Lyon. At the risk of repeating myself, the Lyon track seems far fetched, even in bad faith. But I'll stop there, otherwise I will still make me bawl on the Internet ...
Gazette of RLC: And the last chapter Jacques Cholet: info or intox?
After restoring as many facts, I gave in to the temptation to tell a "good story" too. It was an opportunity to show that with a little imagination, we can easily invent beautiful stories that make you dream. The peculiarity of this one is that even though I would not be able to prove the falsity ... can you convince me otherwise? What is certain is that this is primarily a game for me, a game formatting guard against future counterfeiting. It's very easy to leave or get from the audience on imaginary tracks.
Gazette of RLC: For you, there are forgers at work?
Without a doubt. I do not know if you saw the book of Mrs Chaplin recently, it has not been translated into French. Yet the evidence of letters it produces, signed by Berenger Sauniere is not his handwriting. It is so obvious that it's grotesque. It would be interesting to know who has supplied them? And this is only one example among many. It would be interesting to know the underlying reasons for these people: misinterpretations, wanting to perpetuate a dream to participate, a scam? The fact is that their maneuvers often have real success with a public eager for sensationalism.
Gazette of RLC: Given the abundance of material and the other areas to investigate (biographical donors, possible links to then establish, documents found in their families, etc.), are you a second volume?
Yes, even that to resolve the issue of the financial group of the abbot. This assumption - is it valid or should it be abandoned? Then to specify the biographies of relatives of the Father as we have seen appear. Nevertheless it is a heavy and long work that has been ineffective to date. If God grants me life, count ten. With such a period, normally I should not be late ...
To prolong this interview, we recommend you read of " The notebooks of Saunière ", interview meeting with the author (August 2006).
The first point that differentiates my work is the basic equipment which i have been fortunate in recent years to work on - more than 800 pages of authentic documents. And what documents! I have had access to the accounts of the priest of Rennes-le-Château just when he is embroiled in his enrichment, & i I see no other best source. His correspondence books have proved very interesting because they allow us to know the priest's concerns almost daily. Before this he was some kind of mythical character, now Berenger Sauniere became a real character who was very interesting to know better. But the real difference, I think, I hope, is the rational and methodological character of this work. But here, it will be to everyone else to judge the result.
Gazette of RLC: Remembering the first version of the story and you conclude thus: "At the risk of disappointing you, I must admit that the story is not, strictly speaking, true. And this may surprise you, but I must also state that it is not really false. " What were your your thoughts!
The case of Rennes-le-Château has become a modern myth in the minds of the public. The main assertions put forward in the extensive literature on the subject are false (talking about the Da Vinci Code?) And yet ... they are based on real elements. It was embroidered on a real canvas, but the final image is quite aberrant, very different from the initial facts. This is the rational and irrational mixture which is very impressive in this case - how imagination took hold of a real event (the life of Berenger Sauniere) and ended up in a completely distorted understanding.
This would not be founded in reality & I think we moved on long ago. But the real reality base has become very difficult to recover over time. It was/is still my goal.
Gazette of RLC: You have a clear opinion about the Priory of Sion, "... the Priory of Sion is a recent imaginary creation due to a small group of people, whose motivations and backgrounds were very different, grouped around a whimsical character: Pierre Plantard. "They have invented everything?
I have no doubt on the matter: "they" invented everything, especially Pierre Plantard ... The Priory of Sion has no historical legitimacy, no credibility. Let's look at the problem correctly: The real things are made of real elements. Who? How many members? What were the conditions on entry? What rituals? What administrative structures? What correspondence? With whom? Etc. If it existed in reality, it left traces and these traces are found in reality. QED.
In short, it is important not to take the word "secret" literally ... It's just folklore. For the public, this is probably a rather complicated subject. Yet with a little practice, it becomes very simple. Recently I was interested in the order of Félicitaires (unrelated to the case at hand), an initiatory society of the eighteenth century much less known than the Priory of Sion. It took two hours to find a scholarly article that was devoted to them and two days to retrieve their rituals.
In the case of the Priory of Sion, if you want, and it's been years that we seek, all you find are proven false, shady maneuvers, police reports that are not flattering, swindlers, illuminated ... For cons, I think this "joke" has itself become a myth. Now these imaginary constructions having their own "life," I think the Priory of Sion is a fault in the future to have a real past. We are living witnesses to the birth of a myth and we are already seeing the change in the public's mind. To be continued…
Gazette of RLC: You reconstitute the genesis of the Priory of Sion and bring unprecedented elements. "Pierre Plantard was then clearly the instrument of Geneviève Zaepffel, you write. Tell us about Geneviève Zaepffel.
There has been much focus on this prestigious figure including Pierre Plantard who claimed the unsuspecting with his mythomania: Monti, Savoire ... and we struggled to find proof of this. Geneviève Zaepffel had a real influence on Pierre Plantard in his youth, especially during the war. He is is never called when she had her finest hour but then the character is edifying: pathological liar, illuminated, venal (but sometimes with amazing generosity of access), collaborator, recognized visionary but shortsighted ... it's probably because she was interested in esoterica. It is experiencing this kind of character to the origins of the Priory of Sion that it is best satisfied the implausible nature of the thing. I detailed the elements in my possession about her in the conference proceedings of the ARTBS 2006. I recommend reading the faint of heart ...
Gazette of RLC: His friendly relations with the owner of the chateau of Rennes-le-Château, Marius Fatin, are unknown. Why are they important?
I think we have long sought the link between Plantard and Noel Corbu to try to explain things. Now I have the intuition (you can take this with prejudice) that these relations are weak if not non-existent. It's more likely that the Fatin family knew Pierre Plantard & therefore he was able to do his apprenticeship on Rennes-le-Château in the 1960s - he also found a willing accomplice in Marius Fatin for some disinformation: the letter of the Internationnal League of Antiquirian Booksellers in 1966 for example.
Gazette of RLC: Let's turn to the subject of your book, the notebooks! How have you found them and are they authentic?
I found them on microfilm in the Departmental Archives of the Aude (1Mi81 rating and 82). That alone, if you think about it, is a disaster! They were there since 1981 and no "researcher" had found them apart from Pierre Jarnac in 2001 and me in 2004! The source is PUBLIC: it is you say the feat! Their authenticity is not a problem: the writing is good, it evolves over time according to what we know, it refers to unpublished documents that were not available to counterfeiters, it refers to dozens of other characters that have been identified throughout France ... many authors are therefore in favour of their authenticity. Pierre Jarnac, Antoine Captier, Claire Corbu, Patrick Mensior Patrick, Jean-Jacques Bedu, Henry Lincoln, etc.
Gazette of RLC: What's in them?
The accounts from 1896 to 1915 of the priest - including for inputs and up to 1910 only for expenses. This source is supplemented by the Corbu-Captier funds from 1894 to 1896. The Correspondence Notebooks (input and output), with the recipient's name and summary of the letter from 1896 to 1915, this source is supplemented by the book already published from 1915 to 1917 by Pierre Jarnac. Few scattered lists, one of secular books (about 400 pounds) and songs of the era.
Gazette of RLC: Your knowledge of the abbe has changed after analysis of the notebooks?
Radically! After I had made the preliminary sorting between good information and disinformation ... I found a very human character, perfectly in tune with his time, with his weaknesses and touching sides. A humanity that was urgent to find when we see the excesses that some attribute to him. An educated man, conscientious, sometimes up to a rigid frame, devoted to his faith, probably to excess but also a man who liked to laugh and, above all, loved life. And above all, I realized that most of the elements that had been acquired or obtained concerning his biography were totally false.
RLC Gazette: You do not believe in secret links between Sauniere, Boudet, even Billard! Same also for Elie Bot or the Habsburgs! With the exception of Marie Denarnaud and her family, other relationships of the priest of Rennes-le-Château are at least suspicious, if not illusory, you say!
And I repeat! This is one of the most heartbreaking aspects of my work. We talk passionately: you and I have read dozens of books on this topic! Well just imagine that in essence, everyone has copied Corbu and De Sede, then finally they copy the copiers and so on, transmitting nonsense and giving them, by dint of repeating, a consistency in the public spirit. But they remain stupidities! This leads to such a huge result: Mgr Billard never protected Berenger Sauniere in the least. In practice: - he did not care! I repeat: He did not care! For him, he was a simple and humble worker at the bottom of the barrel[?] ... Elie Bot, his best friend? No ... Not even a friend: a competent contractor and who was appreciated but someone who is never invited to the meals of the abbe. Boudet? Habsburg? Emma Calvé? Guess: it's all hogwash. Want another aspect totally despairing of my work? The name of his real friends are almost unknown. Cazal, Cavailhé, Fons and especially Edouard Auriol, the most faithful and most durable of all. You and I have read dozens of books and hardly any one has seen the name in one or two ... And after you ask me why I'm strict with my predecessors? You realize that it has more than 500 books written there about the subject?
Gazette of RLC: Do you miss the research on those that appear in the correspondence books. Almost nothing in the extensive bibliography! Have you not tried to fix it?
Of course, but I did not for two reasons. The first is that it is sometimes difficult and it would have delayed my work a good year (I was already quite late right?) The second is that I remain a scientist. If I bring a lot of elements in my book, I wanted to still keep a little ahead on certain issues. Hey…
Gazette of RLC: In a lecture in 2004, you announced a major patron was a priest of Rennes-les-Bains ... the chaplain spa guest, Justin Sarda. Silence in the assembly ... What links do you have established between Sauniere and Sarda?
Another example missed: in 50 years, no one seems to have noticed that there was a second priest in activity at Rennes-les-Bains, Justin Sarda, the chaplain of the spa guests. Yet the subject has fascinated some ... But Justin Sarda is an excellent example of someone who actually maintained relations with Berenger Sauniere. The letters are dozens and report numerous reciprocal visits. They also state financial donations well above those of Boudet who themselves are actually very limited. Relations between the two men continue also after abbe Sarda had left Rennes-les-Bains. We have a new person near Berenger Sauniere, totally unknown but a very real one.
RLC Gazette: What is less known is the generous side of Sauniere that sends money orders, sometimes substantial, to soldiers at the front! Have you been able to identify some?
Like any human character, Berenger Sauniere has qualities and defects. The fact is that we find in him good qualities of heart. Some mandates reached 50 francs, a sum for the time. The main beneficiaries were: Barthélémy Denarnaud, Auguste Fons, Louis Fromilhague and Joseph Captier († 1915). Most died. They all had children, he had given them the catechism ... This was a disaster, there have been more than 10 deaths in the village for just over 200 inhabitants in 1917.
Gazette of RLC: The traffic of masses - does it seem to you obvious?
If you write a novel, this must seem logical, otherwise your readers will not appreciate it. But the problem of real life, is that it is not always logical ... I am convinced, particularly through the work of Paul Saussez that Berenger Sauniere made a discovery (at least) during the work of his church. This is very interesting but it is not thanks to this discovery that he became enriched ... There is CLEARLY NO DOUBT - he became enriched by trafficking in masses at the expense of donors he abused. Hence the title of my book: a paradoxical case. I can not help it, it's real life!
Gazette of RLC: Sauniere experienced periods of scarcity and was poor when he died? On what do you base this to affirm?
He struggled the first 10 years (1885-1895) but never again after the introduction of his trafficking. He even had a life annuity of 15,000 francs. The mistake he made comes regularly from negotiations that led to the rates offered for he had kept the value of things. Note that especially on the property he was destined to own, but he never mégoté on his religious achievements (church and domain). At the end of his life it is more complicated. First, because he stops his accounts in 1915, because then the war of 14-18 was a period of high inflation and therefore decreased purchasing power. However, his income seemed to have stabilized at these times to 500-600 francs while a priest was supposed to have 75 francs per month. On the other hand he had his pension. I do not think he died poor.
Gazette of RLC: Reading the account books, one wonders about planning the amounts received by Sauniere. For many months, they are identical to the penny! What is your interpretation?
Where amounts are accurate to the penny, one understands that this is a form of game. Whatever his organizational skills, he could plan his income with such precision. But in the mind, correct and this only happens in some years. On analysis, it shows that he had structured his network of donors and he was able to plan their gifts.
Gazette of RLC: How had he done that?
Here it should be noted that this is not a fact but a theory that I emit. My feeling is that the abbe addresses his requests for Masses to members of a large group (several hundred people). This group has no profile of an initiatory society but rather evoke a monarcho- ultra royalist movement in resistance against the rapprochement with the Republic then advocated by the Catholic hierarchy. I would see an entry of a pious union type association dormant, an ultraconservative group, monarchist radical. The fact is that this theory would explain many things. The regularity of the donations even in the absence of demand, the very low failure rate that appears to save his demands, achievements and a number of contradictions that appear at the trial, some of his achievements ... But for now I have not been able to put a name to this potential organization.
Gazette of RLC: The Sacred Heart Confraternity - does this seem credible?
At the time, most Catholics live their faith around three topics of devotion: devotion to the Pope, the Virgin Mary and the Sacred Heart. These are concerns that we find in Berenger Sauniere. As I was looking for a pious union, some elements had me suspect those dedicated to the Sacred Heart and attached to one of three known archiconfréries. My literature searches yielded nothing for the moment and I think that this line of research here is doomed to failure. I continue to look for other associations, however ...[This group may now have been identified by Christian Doumergue - the Catholic Cercle of Narbonne, Sauniere's brother was a member of this group. Rhedesium Editor].
Gazette of RLC: You move forward evidence to justify the theory of funding requests to create a retirement home for priests. The example of the Belvis priest should be told.
This is one of the few reserves emitted by Antoine Captier on my work (he seems to think that the villa has been designed to Marie). But if my hypothesis proves correct, the gifts were intended for the restoration of the church and to build a retirement home for priests of the association. In the context of the time, with the 1905 law, it was an adventure, but above all Berenger Sauniere would have captured a significant share of these funds. The fact is that in the 1920s, Marie Denarnaud was found to host two or three priests who come to retire. Or one that is clearly identifiable was a financier of the abbe. As Mary is very poor at the time, one of her friends is moved by it and wondered what they hope in a letter. Perhaps simply a return to their investment.
Gazette of RLC: "In the case against Berenger Sauniere for trafficking in masses, the income will be regular again, provided by mass intentions even in the absence of requests despite the prohibitions that are made to the abbe matter and duly published warnings. "How might explain what is the substance of this case?
The fact is, my theory would explain many things. If this association actually returned to resistance against his natural authority, we better understand the interests of the diocese to ask the source of income of the abbe: they wanted the name of the factions ...
Similarly, if one of them had to deal with this authority we better understand the financial support he placed then. At the time of the trial, his revenues are quite stable while the masses of applications have fallen sharply and the bishop produced numerous warnings, all quite severe. As his income changes typically operate on 1 January of each year, this suggests the existence of an agreement.
Gazette of RLC: Between the stubbornness of the bishopric, the bad faith of Sauniere and the lack of professionalism of his lawyer, the Canon Huguet, the trial was bogged down for years. Sauniere - Why can he not produce supporting documents?
Saunière could not give any evidence for two reasons. Admitting his accounting, is to admit that he spent for his personal use a large part of the funds collected - he claims to have used these only for building a retirement home for elderly priests. Second, admitting the system is to give the names of his donors, he still stubbornly refused to do so, either to protect the curiosity of the bishopric or to prevent their contact by the diocese and [the possibility] that it would stop his revenues.
Gazette of RLC: Another aberrant fact, those who gave to the abbe ask only rarely and those who are not concerned by donations go wild. How to explain and have you identified?
Their names are spelled out in the correspondence books. Some were hospital religious institutions and surveys have been conducted. They are very easy to identify even if we still have not found the link that could possibly unite them. The fact is that this is a perfect summary of the trial: the bishop almost never granted Masses Sauniere (including Mgr Billard time). But during the trial, most of his donors remain loyal to him despite warnings and scandal. I devote an entire chapter to the study of this trial and the fact is that, again, the theory of a group in resistance explains many things. However, it remains to be proved formally. Find the name of the association, visit their archives, understand their dynamics and their relationship with the priest of Rennes-le-Château. Here, we will show affirmative. Meanwhile, it remains hypothetical.
RLC Gazette: the esoteric-occultist track does not convince you either! The Way of the Cross is a good example.
Regarding the way of the cross, I am not the first to say that it's anything big. The testimony of the first researchers are very clear about this: the esoteric is a subject that appears in Rennes-le-Château with Gerard De Sede and Pierre Plantard. This is the aspect of their mystification that has best taken the public's mind. Previously, researchers were digging with shovels and picks, even using sometimes a medium. But after the "Gold of Rennes", the symbolic interpretation and the search for secret societies have become the main drivers of the case. But again, this does not seem unfounded. For example, about method, I indulged in a particular study. Since I had called 500 private correspondents Abbe, I tried to identify some in an academic book on Christian esotericism in France in the nineteenth century book, he cites more than 1,200 names. But I found no matches. Assuming very unlikely that the abbot would have attended an initiation coterie occult, the least we can say is that it would have had no influence.
Sauniere was not a Freemason or Rosicrucians or neo-Cathar ...
RLC Gazette: You are categorical about the location of ancient Rhedae ... it's Rennes-le-Château! On what basis do you say this?
I know there is a controversy over the location of the ancient Rhedae. First, Rennes-le-Château is a true archaeological spot. As noted by the late Jean-Luc Robin, just open a simple trench to pass a line and you will find shards of pottery, antique tiles and other pieces (currently displayed in the museum). He was not alone in making this finding. The story of Rennes-le-Château is very rich in various discoveries, not least as important ossuaries described by sections of the Society of Archaeological Studies of the Aude since 1900. Do not underestimate the value archaeological place. But this "spot" it corresponds to Rhedae? My problem is that I like to support my statements and, here, I'll avoid because I fear a looting rule on something that I think I have identified (you said researchers?). So in the end, I claim my own authority which I fully agree, is not worth much. In short, I firmly believe, but I could be wrong.
Gazette of RLC: You locate the old castle to the location of the area of the abbot. Would it not on the other side?
On the other hand: which one? It is in his own correspondence that Sauniere says his domain is built on the site of the old castle. Apparently he destroyed the last vestiges to build the domain. That seems credible and I see no reason to doubt but why not?
Gazette of RLC: In "Codex Arcana - Book II - The Da Vinci Code to the Codex Bezae" Thierry Garnier lists other correspondence between Sauniere and Boudet. We identified also on these dates: March 8, 1897, October 5, 1897, April 1, 1898, September 13, 1899, February 25, 1907, March 1, 1907, July 14, 1907, 25 and 26 March 1909, 14 October 1909, 25 October 1907 or 1909. What do you claim?
This is extremely low for some people to assume so close a correspondence. If the few financial donations is removed, there remains almost nothing personal: a greeting card that Boudet hardly answers? Compared to Justin Sarda or Edward Auriol it is insignificant! There is no special relationship between the two men. This is what has already been said by the residents of Rennes-les-Bains or Antoine Captier for years.
Gazette of RLC: A letter with the collection of contributions Lyon (1912) attest that the abbot had a well in this city. Were you able to cross-check the information?
I restored annexed all visible Travel of Sauniere and, predictably, he never goes to Lyon. At the risk of repeating myself, the Lyon track seems far fetched, even in bad faith. But I'll stop there, otherwise I will still make me bawl on the Internet ...
Gazette of RLC: And the last chapter Jacques Cholet: info or intox?
After restoring as many facts, I gave in to the temptation to tell a "good story" too. It was an opportunity to show that with a little imagination, we can easily invent beautiful stories that make you dream. The peculiarity of this one is that even though I would not be able to prove the falsity ... can you convince me otherwise? What is certain is that this is primarily a game for me, a game formatting guard against future counterfeiting. It's very easy to leave or get from the audience on imaginary tracks.
Gazette of RLC: For you, there are forgers at work?
Without a doubt. I do not know if you saw the book of Mrs Chaplin recently, it has not been translated into French. Yet the evidence of letters it produces, signed by Berenger Sauniere is not his handwriting. It is so obvious that it's grotesque. It would be interesting to know who has supplied them? And this is only one example among many. It would be interesting to know the underlying reasons for these people: misinterpretations, wanting to perpetuate a dream to participate, a scam? The fact is that their maneuvers often have real success with a public eager for sensationalism.
Gazette of RLC: Given the abundance of material and the other areas to investigate (biographical donors, possible links to then establish, documents found in their families, etc.), are you a second volume?
Yes, even that to resolve the issue of the financial group of the abbot. This assumption - is it valid or should it be abandoned? Then to specify the biographies of relatives of the Father as we have seen appear. Nevertheless it is a heavy and long work that has been ineffective to date. If God grants me life, count ten. With such a period, normally I should not be late ...
To prolong this interview, we recommend you read of " The notebooks of Saunière ", interview meeting with the author (August 2006).